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Just a note, but Kuhn isn't postmodern. Yet he is who FARMS usually invokes. Kuhn is a neo-Kantian.

Personally I vote that we just disband the whole "pomo" label. It is confused and muddled enough in connotation now that it does more to confuse than to illuminate.

(note, all I have to go on here as far as understanding is a quick spin through wikipedia. So, if I'm completely off base, just say like "nice try Naiah, but no" and know that I apologize.)

I'm already seeing some trends in the chruch that echo the earmarks that wikipedia gives for EC. As we become a more glabal church, there is less identifying as a Utah/pioneer/social group/homogenous culture. With such a wide spectrum of peoples, we have but one thing in common--Christ, and much of what was previously church identity has begin to fall away. You see more and more "this is His church" with an emphasis on the 'His' as opposed to the 'church'. The logo was reworked some years ago to being "Jesus Christ" out more prominently visually.

I suppose emergent Latter-day Saints would self-identify primarily as Christian, as opposed to "Mormon" or "LDS." (I think we should use the term LDC, myself, but that's for another soap box.)

I think our heirarchy is still very necessary, but, in a sense it is already very progressive in this same vein, as it is a lay clergy, shrinking the delta between said heirarchy and the hoi polloi of the church.

I agree that the 'nacle brings us as close as anything to this model. We discuss, we share, we learn, we enrich our spiritual lives like any spiritual community, and yet there is no bishop (unless you count J. Stapley, hahaha) or leaders.

For a lengthy exchange on LDS postmodern perspectives, visit Clark's memorable post on the subject.

Thanks for the plug Dave, although I pity anyone who wades through all the comments.

Just to make a further point, to be anti-positivist is not to be a postmodernist. Indeed by the 1950's positivism had largely been discredited in philosophy (largely by Popper and Quine). It still had an influence and there are still quasi-positivists. (Such as DKL) But one hopes that the portrayal isn't between a vague and nebulous "postmodernism" and a strawman of positivism. There really are lots more choices.

Thanks, Dave. I appreciat eth pointer. I've started cutting thorugh it, but, being 6 pages long and all, alas, it doesn't exactly fit in between homeschool lessons and potty training, and of such if my mundane existence composed. The thread that never dies, indeed.

If you want the one paragraph summary of the thread Naiah, basically Vogel does adopt some positivist tendencies, some argue "what's so wrong with positivism?," FARMS doesn't worry about who their audience is nor the rhetorical effect of their essays, having a bias isn't bad so long as one is clear about what it is, and the real debate is over the facts and interpretation of the facts.

A lot of the comments go around and around. In fact just reading the first page I cringed at how often I repeated exactly the same point. Ugh.

I am fully in favor of a religion that is more experiental and less propositional. Is that postmodern? I think it's profoundly Mormon, in any case; we've never been much good at systematic theology...

I guess it all depends upon what one means by "experiental."

Dave, you asked, "What (if anything) will move the Church in new directions, whether postmodern or otherwise? Increasing growth in South America and Africa? The impact of technology? The influence of historians or intellectuals? The cultural confrontation with Islam that seems to be looming over the West?"

May I respectfully suggest that continuing revelation from God to authorized prophets will move the Church in new directions. All other influences will be minor and incidental.

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